Rawls, Justice, and inceldom

Egads5
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Rawls, Justice, and inceldom

Post by Egads5 » March 12th, 2019, 11:05 am

<t>One only needs to look around briefly to recognize the deep pain that manifests itself on this forum. Behind every user, there is a sad story. A slow death of a thousand cuts . A hidden injustice. There is anger, hate, and sadness. Every case is unique, of course, but the pain is undeniable. When outsiders encounter this, they likely ridicule or preach societal tenants. I imagine the worst of it must be when they try to practice 'empathy' a trait supposedly unique to their kind. Something you "must" be lacking. Of course, their empathy is shallow. They misunderstand the nature of your experience, and are only capable of a certain depth of thought (as happy minds have no natural need for a sober contemplation of their existence).<br/>
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As you know, it is no cakewalk to be brought into a life by chance, not choice, and having to suffer the experience of a square peg in a world of round holes. Programmed to desire what you will be denied. Capable of not only feeling the frustration, but the damned emotion of an ego unfulfilled. Designed to love yourself, you live in a world that makes you grow to believe that loving yourself must be some form of insanity. I mean look at you. <br/>
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I grew up in the West, I know how it is here. The fortunate are not taught humility. The hard eugenics of the fascists are denounced by schoolteachers. Teachers who practice the acceptable brand of soft eugenics, blind to the hypocrisy as they fawn over the chosen sons and daughters of the community. Blind when the chosen sons and daughters spit on the faces of the underclass. <br/>
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If you couldn't tell, I was bullied in high school and then sent to a liberal arts college. My last hope that this society was a fair one died when I realized that those with unearned confidence, arrogance, and a simple lack of humility sat around me in my university classes. All eager to play the game that they were set up to win. I was always struck by the limits of their empathy. It always feels bizarre to hit the point where someone can simply not contemplate the misery of another. When it becomes an abstraction that is inconvenient, or incompatible. I'm talking about that point when a conversation hits the newspeak. The cliche-ridden sentiment that holds conversations back from truly uncomfortable territory. The presence of willing thoughtlessness. <br/>
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Amongst good friends, this was always possible. In private, people open up. In public, people let you down. I saw this in the bland, predictable nature of debate and reaction to issues both in the classroom, and in the political sphere. No surprise the political sphere is failing. It is failing a lot of people, and that includes you. <br/>
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Now I am sure this is not news to you, but this is something I am immensely interested in. In particular, I am interested in the application of a famous liberal theory of Justice to the incel experience: Rawls' original position thought experiment. <br/>
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According to Rawls, a society should legislate based on what laws would be best for those in the original position (that is, before they are born) behind the veil of ignorance (you cannot know whether you are born healthy or sick, black or white, poor or wealthy, handsome or ugly, disabled or able bodied etc.). Rawls would see a society like ours as unjust, unsurprisingly, as those born fortunate are also fortunate in the word and application of the law, the rules of the market, and the role of the government in everyday life. <br/>
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This line of thinking can be productively applied to the incel experience, knowing that one could potentially be born in such a hopeless situation symptomatic of an unfair order. Imagine if one were to be short, bald, weak, pasty, pimpled, lacking face symmetry, soft features, on the spectrum, lacking intelligence, skills, etc. Considering this, I would not consider the free market economy in its current iteration particularly just. I would not consider the state of the education system this hypothetical person was developed within adequate. I would not consider the treatment by authority and policing of behavior acceptable. While this may not be particularly new to anyone here, the justification of the grievances of incels with the theories of a famous scholar from the liberal tradition would definitely prove a shock to some aspects of the population. <br/>
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I'm personally in the belief that simply being born beautiful and talented is a luxury as is. So why the hell are we giving the beautiful and talented so much damn money and power. Their lives will be intrinsically good from the nature of their existence. They simply do not require the added societal trophies and resources to lead happy lives. The Marxist mantra "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" fits the rawlsian theory of Justice well in this sense. Behind the veil of ignorance, you would take less if you knew it was on the precondition of privilege. (Note: I am not advocating a totally centralized economy, simply a larger welfare state that aids all of those who have trouble finding employment, partners, happiness, wellness etc). <br/>
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I believe that the demeaning work given to those who have lower social value should provide more compensation than a job of relevance and esteem. This is consistent with Rawlsian Justice. Those who would be quick to claim that nobody would be motivated to work in this environment, that such a system would be unsustainable, are definitely arguing from the high ground in today's context. The thing is, the added value of a fulfilling career can bridge the motivation deficit provided by lower pay. It is already doing so today. People in the job market tend to value meaningful work, especially those in positions of consequence in their field. If anything, these changes would ensure that those in positions of consequence are there because of authentic interest, not for monetary reasons, and are thus less likely to, say, engage in fraudulent activity. <br/>
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Hobbes was right when he described the state of nature as nasty, brutish, and short. So why are people taking so long to escape our animalistic natures. Sex, status, and extreme competition are features of the animal kingdom that we do not need to incorporate into the kingdoms of our own design. In a society like ours, we lose so much connection, so much sharing, so much empathy and depth in our animalistic pursuits of pleasure. <br/>
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Human history, if anything, is the story of ascension, evolution. We know that hot people banging it out in the stead of forging connections is not a higher form. We know life is about the inner beauty. Sex, much like drugs and alcohol, is a bodily distraction to the truly conscious mind. The crown Jewel of human existence does not lie at the front of the pelvis, but at the front of the brain. Perhaps in a society with a modern view of Justice, rawlsian Justice, the experience of the incel isn't so desperate. Maybe it is a life of more dignity. <br/>
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If that is convincing to you, then you would want to help bring that Justice to your society in any little way you could. For the sake of the incels of the future. For only you can truly understand what they will go through.</t>
Egads5
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Re: Rawls, Justice, and inceldom

Post by Egads5 » March 12th, 2019, 11:11 am

Forgive the absurd length and sentence fragments etc. It is late here
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lordoftheincels
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Re: Rawls, Justice, and inceldom

Post by lordoftheincels » March 12th, 2019, 2:40 pm

Good post, goes well with this music:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGhXGHnlcNE
Egads5
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Re: Rawls, Justice, and inceldom

Post by Egads5 » March 12th, 2019, 6:56 pm

I don't click links, what is it?
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vcelguy
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Re: Rawls, Justice, and inceldom

Post by vcelguy » March 12th, 2019, 7:11 pm

Egads5 wrote:
March 12th, 2019, 6:56 pm
I don't click links, what is it?
clearly youtube...
Contact me:
Egads5
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Re: Rawls, Justice, and inceldom

Post by Egads5 » March 12th, 2019, 7:19 pm

Asking about the song. Excuse my autism, just one of those things.
Egads5
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Re: Rawls, Justice, and inceldom

Post by Egads5 » March 12th, 2019, 9:42 pm

Ok, I don't get it. Anyway, I was curious as to whether people here found the line of thought convincing. Any notes?
iwantjustice
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Re: Rawls, Justice, and inceldom

Post by iwantjustice » March 12th, 2019, 11:51 pm

This is so beautiful post, thanks for that
igorsunderstudy95
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Re: Rawls, Justice, and inceldom

Post by igorsunderstudy95 » March 14th, 2019, 1:07 am

"I'm personally in the belief that simply being born beautiful and talented is a luxury as is. So why the hell are we giving the beautiful and talented so much damn money and power. Their lives will be intrinsically good from the nature of their existence. They simply do not require the added societal trophies and resources to lead happy lives. The Marxist mantra "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" fits the rawlsian theory of Justice well in this sense. Behind the veil of ignorance, you would take less if you knew it was on the precondition of privilege. (Note: I am not advocating a totally centralized economy, simply a larger welfare state that aids all of those who have trouble finding employment, partners, happiness, wellness etc)."

This is revolutionary thought right here, I'm curious how you developed this belief system. Clearly you know plenty of privileged normies benefiting from the current state of society.
Egads5
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Re: Rawls, Justice, and inceldom

Post by Egads5 » March 14th, 2019, 7:53 am

igorsunderstudy95 wrote:
March 14th, 2019, 1:07 am
"I'm personally in the belief that simply being born beautiful and talented is a luxury as is. So why the hell are we giving the beautiful and talented so much damn money and power. Their lives will be intrinsically good from the nature of their existence. They simply do not require the added societal trophies and resources to lead happy lives. The Marxist mantra "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" fits the rawlsian theory of Justice well in this sense. Behind the veil of ignorance, you would take less if you knew it was on the precondition of privilege. (Note: I am not advocating a totally centralized economy, simply a larger welfare state that aids all of those who have trouble finding employment, partners, happiness, wellness etc)."

This is revolutionary thought right here, I'm curious how you developed this belief system. Clearly you know plenty of privileged normies benefiting from the current state of society.
A combination of many things.

I do come from a place of immense privilege: an affluent upper-middle class community in the western world. Not quite kids with trust funds and sports cars, but close to it. If anything, this level of wealth leaves us better suited as our parents are generally around, there is a greater sense of community, and the kids can't afford to take the truly expensive drugs. It is harder to stay balanced at the extremes. We attend public high schools, but these are amongst the top public schools in the country. We are taught moderation, conservation and the rest of the middle class values. Good looking, socially adept people can lead lives of security and stability very easily in my world. The path to a career looks straightforward, and while there are some less comfortable periods (post undergrad due to prohibitively expensive housing) happiness is abundant. People eat healthy, are well educated, and fit. Chronic health conditions are rare, the only real issue in this community is mental health (but these issues are less pronounced than they are in less wealthy areas).

I had a rather unique experience in my community. I was a total outsider. I moved here from a place very far away in the year before I was to enter secondary school. I wasn't always the easiest person to get along with for a variety of reasons and I ended up on the receiving end of some pretty nasty bullying (my only friends in this new town turned on me and would either ditch me or follow me around pelting me with rocks). Jaded by the time I reached high school and still very much a black sheep, I spent an incredible amount of time on my own, holding out hope for the "best years of my life" that waited for me in university. My parents fed me that line (and paid me through school which was a wonderful thing). The only issue is, my years in university were not the best. I did make a couple lifelong friends, success as advertised, but I was still very much the black sheep.

Going there confirmed my worst fears. The world was full of people willing to sell out. Buying into a system that was broken and ignoring or inadequately dismissing those nagging feelings that it is wrong. These are people willing to play a broken game if it is in their favour. This despicable irrationality has a simple cause: thoughtlessness. They don't consider the implications of an unstable society because they don't have to. Whenever they do discuss the state of things, they often miss underlying causes and engage in shallow thinking.

The thoughtlessness of my peers played into my favour when we had to share our thoughts in an academic environment (some professors had great minds and encouraged free, abstract thought). Unfortunately, at the end of the day all the interesting debate about systems of government, distribution, personal responsibility, totalitarianism was irrelevant. The students who sat in the classes with blank faces and blanker minds would leave that class with a 70 and head off to the work force. Many do find university hard, but to a certain extent a bang average person can thrive in an environment which has merely become a test of one's ability to manage their time and workload when living away from home. Sex and social support are likely better predictors of academic success than intelligence.

From my role on the outside, I had plenty of time to think. People likely thought I was a creep because I tend to get caught off guard by something I notice and slip deep into thought. I've been told that I look like a rapist when I notice something funny about group behavior in a nightclub and start playing around with the new idea. I needed to choose my friends carefully because not everyone wants to talk about evolutionary dynamics, group coping mechanisms, the economic inefficiencies of the inequality championed by the status quo.

More frustratingly, some who do talk politics are more so fans of a political party/ideology like one would be a fan of a sports team. They will rarely examine their own beliefs and stick to cliches. They are generally sophists, unaware or too immature to recognize the emotional highjacking of their rational processes.

As much as 4 years of broken interactions, betrayal, or relative isolation were such a sad way to spend "the best years of my life" I am grateful for them as had I enjoyed uni I would likely have ended up giving up the contemplation and selling out myself.

Then I went bald at the age of 22. Further contemplation of my position, and knowledge of this community through the immature, classless, mocking of it by Reddit (and general assumption based on my understanding of the societal makeup) and I wedded some small aspects of this perspective into my own, which I continued to develop through independent reading of philosophy and political thought and discussion amongst close friends. My time in rehab post dropping out of uni was certainly an influence on me as well. Seeing the depths to which people can sink, and meeting these desperate in an environment where you are equals(in meetings) gave me a lens which very few people in my situation have been able to look through genuinely.

So yeah, I've lived a life where I have serious potential to go in two drastically different directions, and developed a point of view through broad experiences and consistent contemplation.

Honestly it would take me sitting down and writing a fucking tome to explain everything to an extent that satisfies me. I apologise for my long windedness. This is just my most natural way to communicate (wonder why I'm single). I really appreciate discussion and feedback so please, pick it apart! Or add something new, whatever.
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