Blackpill description feels like a big cope

Nojudgement

Incels.Net Novice
I've been reading a lot of your posts and ideas and I'm wondering at the worldview that is generally supported here (blackpill).

It feels a lot like you're using it to cope with all the unfairness in the world which, to be clear, I agree exists in so many ways. What I don't agree with is how oversimplified the issue is on both sides. The outside version is fairly widespread in different forms (e.g. incels are lonely losers, entitled to sex, hate women, just need to be confident, get over your issues, racist, sexist etc.)

Here, though, it feels like a lot of you are saying just as many oversimplified things in order to cope.

E.g.
Incels might say- Normies are NPCs = They largely repeat their ideas, thoughts and so on. Nothing much unique
Incel forums - Most incels tend to use the same ideas, thoughts and so on.

Women only care about money, themselves and Chad
vs
Most people in the world manage relationships and love. We're talking bilions of people who manage OK. Everyone I've ever met (tens of thousands in different countries) has or has had loving relationships without cheating and running from money. I can agree that some women choose money over anything else, like some men choose looks only, but to simplify it over 3.5 billion women is too easy.


There could be many more examples, but to me the incel community seems to create a strong echo chamber effect where you're not going to change anything for the better as you just loop around the same, limiting worldview and fail to look at it critically. The last point seems ironic as I have read people here complaining that bluepilled people fail to look at the world critically. In that sense, I'm worried it's actively pushing incels away from anything positive or looking at actually addressing the unfairness in the world, looks bias, changing standards for sex and relationships etc. Once you set up an US vs THEM dynamic then you don't have to think critically much any more because your side has the only truth or rightness. Bluepill perfection is as simplified and incomplete as blackpill nihilism.


Also, if you want to actually change things in the world, these kinds of simplified worldviews aren't going to persuade many people. I feel it in myself when I read some of your posts. The first thing that happens when we get challenged by a statement like "All (insert people) do (insert action/belief/etc.) all the time." is to think of examples that counteract it.

When someone writes that women only care for themselves in a relationship I think of all the relationships I've had and I know that show exactly the opposite. If you said, a number of women don't show love and respect for their partners and cheat on them, like a number of men do, then I'm fully on your side because that's a thoughtful and reasonable positiion (High IQ you might say).

If you want to talk about the unfairness of dating and the way(s) we might change societal values to make a better balance for romantic success for all people in society then great. If you say that anyone's wife will give it up for Chad any time, then you've oversimplified to a painful degree and I'm struggling to take you seriously.



Would anyone be willing to have a balanced dialogue (i.e. both sides agree not to oversimplify or ignore the other side's points) on this topic?

All the best
 

EyeH8me

Incels.Net Novice
Seeing as how the internet is kind of like BROADcasting, it is meant for a broad audience. We cannot take billions of people on a case by case basis. GENERALLY speaking, women by and large want men for money and men want women for sex/emotional support. If that weren’t the case the majority of the time, then the incel movement, MGTOW movement and the feminist movement wouldn’t exist. There has been study after study ad nauseum that supports this generality. Are there exceptions? Absolutely. But most of us have not even been capable of experiencing the aforementioned, much less the latter. So the hopelessness and constant rejection and failure lead us to places like these where we are free to speak open and honest about our frustrations about this generality. And to come here and say that we are oversimplifying things and being too general shows me that you are not one of us. That you have experienced these exceptions to the rule. Or even the rule itself. Most of us here have not. It’s insulting at best. Deceptive and condescending at worst.
 

Whatshappeningtome25

Incels.Net Novice
Nojudgement said:
When someone writes that women only care for themselves in a relationship I think of all the relationships I've had and I know that show exactly the opposite.
If you say that anyone's wife will give it up for Chad any time, then you've oversimplified to a painful degree and I'm struggling to take you seriously.

Getting cheated on or how women would behave in a relationship or if wife would give up for chad is not incel's problem. An incel's problem is how to get a girlfriend or wife in the first place, because they are too ugly, not cool enough or have other issues.

Those are the problems of an mgtow I think.
 

Nojudgement

Incels.Net Novice
What you just said I can go with. Simply because using the word generally is more accurate.

My problem was that too many incels in my experience don't adjust their phrasing in this way and instead make statements as though they are 100% fact rather than generally accurate.

For me it's as inaccurate as saying that incels lack basic social skills. For sure some (many?) do but to state it as though it's 100% the case is disingenuous and doesn't help the discussion


I'm not incel. My life experience has been and is very different to most of yours seems to have been. Naturally that's going to affect my view.

Honestly I want you all to have better lives. I think the blanket statements that are commonly expressed here will only take you further from that though. That is my only point here.
 

EyeH8me

Incels.Net Novice
Nojudgement said:
What you just said I can go with. Simply because using the word generally is more accurate.

My problem was that too many incels in my experience don't adjust their phrasing in this way and instead make statements as though they are 100% fact rather than generally accurate.

For me it's as inaccurate as saying that incels lack basic social skills. For sure some (many?) do but to state it as though it's 100% the case is disingenuous and doesn't help the discussion


I'm not incel. My life experience has been and is very different to most of yours seems to have been. Naturally that's going to affect my view.

Honestly I want you all to have better lives. I think the blanket statements that are commonly expressed here will only take you further from that though. That is my only point here.
To assume in any given conversation that 100% of the time, this or that is always the case is completely ignorant. I think we are all, as humans, smart enough to realize there are always exceptions to every rule. We are unable to have better lives not because we focus on the majority. We will never have better lives because there is something within us all (be it in our minds, physically, genetically or a combination) that will not allow us to function as normies. I have lived 40 miserable years trying to be someone I am not and I have achieved what most people see as a normal life. But it is far from it. It is a facade. And I hate I have to be this way. But it’s not within my control. Only after years and years of failure, rejection and shame have I learned how to fake my way through every miserable day. Women? I don’t even think about the possibility of a relationship anymore. It’s impossible.
 

ortharzeal

EteRnal Evil.
So, we are supposed to take bluepill bs seriously because of muh equality, muh partnership, muh discussion on our websites, while you continue to treat us like shit IRL and dismiss our ideas as nonsense on your websites?

Not going to happen.
 

inunotaisho

Incels.Net Novice
Nojudgement said:
Honestly I want you all to have better lives. I think the blanket statements that are commonly expressed here will only take you further from that though. That is my only point here.
Could be some of us want to wallow in our misery without seeking to improve ourselves. There is comfort to be found around people who are in similar distress. The only to blame for my misery is myself, but to fix it I would have to stop being me.
 

Nojudgement

Incels.Net Novice
tremor said:
So, we are supposed to take bluepill bs seriously because of muh equality, muh partnership, muh discussion on our websites, while you continue to treat us like shit IRL and dismiss our ideas as nonsense on your websites?

Not going to happen.
I didn't say that. I said that you if you (or others opposed to your ideas) oversimplify ideas to the equivalent of:

All normies are ABC
All incels are XYZ


Then we'll never get away from the negative treatment. You guys get treated really badly in a lot of ways and those could be improved, at least to some extent. But I think if you express yourselves in an overly simplistic manner nobody has to take you seriously because your ideas are too one-dimensional. Why would they listen to you if you can be written off as a "bunch of inaccurate idea filled incel [negative adjective]". But if you speak in a way that sheds real light on the problems many of you face and have faced, which are really bad and something that others don't like to see, then it's going to be harder to ignore you and ignore those problems.

I suspect that a lot of the dismissal of your ideas is because they are too simple in their expression (my original point here) coupled with the extreme elements that have come up on other incel sites (murder, rape, forced prostіtution, violence etc.), but thankfully not here.

I have never treated an incel in a negative way, at least not intentionally, nor do I intend to do so.
 

Nojudgement

Incels.Net Novice
inunotaisho said:
Could be some of us want to wallow in our misery without seeking to improve ourselves. There is comfort to be found around people who are in similar distress. The only to blame for my misery is myself, but to fix it I would have to stop being me.
For sure it's nice to empathise with others who have suffered in similar manners to you. I can appreciate that and I have had the benefit as well when my dad died and I could share it with a friend whose mother died a short time before.

I read your comment on my other thread and I think to blame yourself for your misery and suffering is far from accurate. You've had a lot of really horrible experiences while growing up, which would affect anyone a lot. It sounds like you didn't get helped through them either, which is no fun.

I'm sorry you had that.
 

inunotaisho

Incels.Net Novice
Nojudgement said:
inunotaisho said:
Could be some of us want to wallow in our misery without seeking to improve ourselves. There is comfort to be found around people who are in similar distress. The only to blame for my misery is myself, but to fix it I would have to stop being me.
For sure it's nice to empathise with others who have suffered in similar manners to you. I can appreciate that and I have had the benefit as well when my dad died and I could share it with a friend whose mother died a short time before.

I read your comment on my other thread and I think to blame yourself for your misery and suffering is far from accurate. You've had a lot of really horrible experiences while growing up, which would affect anyone a lot. It sounds like you didn't get helped through them either, which is no fun.

I'm sorry you had that.
I partially blame my parents for my upbringing, but I consider it very much better than some of my friends. Being in a harsh household to grow up, the closest friends I've made throughout life were in a similar situation. Two of which developed to become socially introverted, never speaking to anyone, not even at the age of 26 having the slighest idea or thought of interacting, atleast as far as I know. But they also still hold no bitterness. The last one being a extreme extrovert character, he's easily above 8 look wise and he spends his life seeking confirmation from women, cheating on them and always showing this extreme masculine character that can never be wrong and overly dominant.
We all just ended up with different characters from our childhoods. But I feel truly I am not bound by mine. I used to be very well groomed and had a fit body, but I just lost all hope after analyzing myself. I do not think its fair to put children through the torture of giving them such feeble characteristics, lack of height, bad eyesight, a bad spine and a muscle tremor sickness from birth.

I have at the age of 26 never been with a woman and nor do I want to since several years back. If I had a child he could inherit from me, as I did from my mother, this essential tremor sickness causing uncontrollable shaking throughout his body. He'd most likely would be short of height, have bad teeth and crooked fingers along with a crooked spine.

As my childhood except from granting me a very indifferent personality I also used to be quite confident, I was from a young age hellbent on survival and my mind knew I was not a physically strong man so I became a indifferent, forgiving and excusing man, very agreeable with everyone else (I was even voted the best classmate in 6th grade). But it also blocked me from understanding how weak my body was. Does not matter if a man burnt on 70% of his body can find love or a 5'3 man does. For me it would be horrible to pass on these genes to my children.
 

inunotaisho

Incels.Net Novice
When I say weak, I mean inferior, the many physical imperfections such as my tremors, spine, teeth.

My mother died 2nd of february this year. One of the last things she told me was showing me her shaking hands saying "this will destroy your life." When you cant eat soup without people thinking you're a drug addicts it will eventually start to hurt.
 

ortharzeal

EteRnal Evil.
Nojudgement said:
Then we'll never get away from the negative treatment. You guys get treated really badly in a lot of ways and those could be improved, at least to some extent. But I think if you express yourselves in an overly simplistic manner nobody has to take you seriously because your ideas are too one-dimensional. Why would they listen to you if you can be written off as a "bunch of inaccurate idea filled incel [negative adjective]". But if you speak in a way that sheds real light on the problems many of you face and have faced, which are really bad and something that others don't like to see, then it's going to be harder to ignore you and ignore those problems.

I suspect that a lot of the dismissal of your ideas is because they are too simple in their expression (my original point here) coupled with the extreme elements that have come up on other incel sites (murder, rape, forced prostіtution, violence etc.), but thankfully not here.
This absolutely fine and the ultimate goal assuming we're talking on a neutral ground.

Incel forums can't possibly be a neutral ground when it comes to the incel issue, especially in light of the fact that nobody actually invites non-blackpilled normans such as yourself here.

The forums are intended to be a safe space for incels, who cannot find acceptance on normie ground like reddit and 4chan.

We let those who don't belong here by design stay for the sake of transparency and to encourage promotion of the blackpill. The reason why incels repeat the same things again and again is not that our forums are an "echo chamber" by design, but the need to protect themselves from the bluepilled deception which is being promoted here and there, ruining more and more lives of men day after day. It's a matter of survival. We can't change the society SJWs have created to make our needs attended to. Why do you think you are entitled to having our community transformed so that it's another neutral, and later cucked """"neutral"""" website? Yesterday you asked to be able to speak, today you are asking to use more politically correct words, tomorrow you will demand deletion of all posts that offend m'lady and introduction of gender quotas in the staff.
Unless you vanish.
 

reg509

Incels.Net Novice
tremor said:
Unless you vanish.
:D Ohoh shHit
I hate to sound SJWish, but if you or another higher up is thinking about banning this norman pseudo-psychologist please go through with it! I can't stand this dude. He stalks the forum just to counter our threads with BS bluepill rhetoric we've all heard 1000 times before, he defends the people that make our lives miserable, and then wonders why we get pissed at him. He's seriously wearing out his welcome now advocating for the castration of this forum. I say drop the hammer!!!!
 

Nojudgement2

Incels.Net Junior
I was never asking you to change your words or limit your speech. I also do not defend the terrible things that have been done to you.

My point was and is that if you want to actually have people understand you and sympathise with your pain and problems (which I do btw), then I think you would do better to phrase yourselves more accurately so the world has to take you now seriously rather than writing you off as some fringe extremists.

The best of luck to all of you in life. I hope things get better for you.

Goodbye
 

ralpeg

Incels.Net Novice
Nojudgement said:
What you just said I can go with. Simply because using the word generally is more accurate.

My problem was that too many incels in my experience don't adjust their phrasing in this way and instead make statements as though they are 100% fact rather than generally accurate.

For me it's as inaccurate as saying that incels lack basic social skills. For sure some (many?) do but to state it as though it's 100% the case is disingenuous and doesn't help the discussion


I'm not incel. My life experience has been and is very different to most of yours seems to have been. Naturally that's going to affect my view.

Honestly I want you all to have better lives. I think the blanket statements that are commonly expressed here will only take you further from that though. That is my only point here.
The stupidity there with regard to your insistence of a term like "in general", and your assuming that 100% is always meant, seems like stupidity on your part. (Again yeah that's not to say that you are stupid or stupid in every way. We are all stupid in some ways. I'm just highlighting your stupidity, for your benefit).

There's an atheist youtuber AIU, that has mocked this very well, and demolished the young turks like nobody else, and others, and actually made T-shirts saying "NOT ALL"

Like if somebody says X commit terrorism in larger numbers than other groups. Then some idiot says "Are you saying that ALL [individuals group] commits terrorism"

It's really incredibly stupid. It has reached a point where if talking to such a person one has to yell in their ear a few times "NOT ALL" before making a statement. Then maybe they get it and they don't make the accusation that "all" was meant.

For years that was the number 1 goto argument of the regressive left.

Look up Regressive Agenda point number 8. That's you

http://www.regressiveagenda.com/

it is you that is behaving like a stupid cloned puppet there by doing that.

And i'm not saying you're a stupid cloned puppet. Just that in that particular regard, it seems you are.

Also, when it comes to anybody being a "fringe extremist" I have not yet seen much or any evidence of it on this forum..4chan and reddit seem like they may be pretty bad in general though, on much of entire 4chan or reddit site. not even particular to incels. But this forum seems pretty healthy in that regard, from what i've seen so far.
 

heyboysgeusswho

Incels.Net Junior
So hey, yea, woman here. Let me just start out by saying, in the nicest way possible, that you guys are completely wrong. I know that most of you are not going to believe me, and I'm sorry that you guys feel that way. There is a huge world out there, and billions of women who are nothing what you guys describe.
So, I'm going to tell you a bit about myself and my fellow women, and hopefully, some of you won't have to let your anger consume you so much, and you could be happy...
So I am bisexual. I totally, 100% understand what it is like to be rejected by a woman, and also by a man. I have rejected people, and people have rejected me. I have never, ever, turned down someone for looks, or money, or sex. I have never sent a nude, or even had sex. While I know that many, many women have had sex and such, I can confidently tell you that the vast majority of them do not turn people down for the reasons that you are describing.
I love men, you know. Men are great. And no, I'm not a whore, I can just appreciate value. The only reason women say men are trash is because men treat women like trash sometimes. I see on some of the forums, men are suggesting mutilating women so that they would not be able to see a man, or feel him inside her; they basically want to use women solely for sex and cleaning.
And I know, by no means are all men like this.
And the only reason a women will turn you down is if she is not interested. For whatever reason, she is not interested. Whether she sees you as only a friend, or is not looking for a relationship, is already in a relationship, or you made her uncomfortable, or she just doesn't feel that connection with you. And that is not something that you should fault a woman for. If you turned down a woman, is that something that she should hate you for, or swear revenge on you for, or threaten you for? If you were not interested, then you were not interested, time to move on.
Women can be happy without being in a relationship. I see posts on here that a woman will make posts about being happy and having a good life, but she still turned you down. And I honestly do not see how those are connected. I live a very happy life. I have my rough spots sometimes, but I have a good life, despite a really rough past. This does not make me better than anyone else, man or woman, nor do I ever feel like I am. It just means that I am content. Whether or not I have someone in my life does not affect that. I am not even looking for a relationship; if someone comes along that is a fun person, and can make me laugh, cares deeply about me, and also believes that men and women deserve EQUAL rights (not better or worse), then I will maybe see where that could go. But I will not turn them down because of their looks or money, and I cannot tell you a single women who could. My rule: spoil me, I will spoil you more. Treat me like a queen, I will treat you like a king. Because in a relationship, I (and every other woman I have ever met) will love you and cherish you. I would rub your feet after a long day and cook for you and cuddle on the couch with you and build forts with the couch cushions so we could watch movies together, and the only thing that I would ask is that you love me and appreciate my effort and put effort of your own in. And I understand that you guys want this, I want this too, you know. Everybody does...and all I can say is that you have to find her. Not every woman will turn you down, there will be at least that one that will accept you and love you like that, and I sincerely hope you find her.
Now, if a girl IS using you just for sex, or money or leading you on (just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't sometimes happen, I admit) then I will agree with you to the ends of the Earth that that is wrong and hurtful and not ok, and you deserve to feel upset. And you also deserve to heal from it. I know that every single one of you on here is a good guy and that you're hurt, and I'm sorry that you have been hurt so bad, and I wish there was something that I could do to make it better besides post this, because this is all I have.
You do not have to be so angry. Trust me I completely understand, I have been so angry over rejections in the past, and wanted nothing but revenge. But I learned to be happy, and I really want you guys to also. I am not being condescending or patronizing or a "cuck", or think that I am better than you. I am not selfish, and do not seek out selfish ends in a relationship. I am not being naive, I am honest to god, telling you from the bottom of my heart, that this is the truth. And I am not only speaking for myself. I speak for just about every woman. I hope this helps some of you understand a bit...
 

reg509

Incels.Net Novice
Nojudgement2 said:
The best of luck to all of you in life. I hope things get better for you.

Goodbye
Nojudgement2? What is this? Why'd you make a separate account like they banned you and you needed it to post? From what I see your original account hasn't been banned, yet. Posts from a banned account highlight the username in a darker shade of blue. Whatever, I'm not apologizing for anything I said.

I was a therapy kid in high school, I've seen my share of psychologists. I likened you to a psychologist because you remind me so much of them with your ambiguous motivation behind trying to help people like us, and your lackluster bluepill advice that falls completely apart when held to even the slightest degree of logical scrutiny. I always hated them, I was not there voluntarily, and I always had 10 comebacks for everything they'd say before I even walked in.

They're not about honesty, they're about twisting the truth and selling an unrealistically happy reality to you to keep you from pulling the trigger long enough to come back and give them more of your money. That's their game. That's their true motivation for "helping people" pretending they're a friend who understands you so they can suck your wallet dry, but with you that's obviously not the case. I don't have the slightest idea what your motivation is and that's what bothers me the most about you.

I refuse to believe anyone's that altruistic. My only guess is that you're enrolled in a psychology course and you're doing this as practice or something. If you really are that selfless a person, which I do not believe is possible, then let this be a lesson in reality. Let your rejection from this site symbolize women's rejection of us. Let the feeling of being looked down upon despite you only having the best intent fester and build within you to the point where you come to resent the people who made you feel that way, and then you might just begin to truly understand us.
 

Nojudgement

Incels.Net Novice
reg509 said:
They're not about honesty, they're about twisting the truth and selling an unrealistically happy reality to you to keep you from pulling the trigger long enough to come back and give them more of your money. That's their game. That's their true motivation for "helping people" pretending they're a friend who understands you so they can suck your wallet dry, but with you that's obviously not the case. I don't have the slightest idea what your motivation is and that's what bothers me the most about you.

I refuse to believe anyone's that altruistic. My only guess is that you're enrolled in a psychology course and you're doing this as practice or something. If you really are that selfless a person, which I do not believe is possible, then let this be a lesson in reality. Let your rejection from this site symbolize women's rejection of us. Let the feeling of being looked down upon despite you only having the best intent fester and build within you to the point where you come to resent the people who made you feel that way, and then you might just begin to truly understand us.

Tremor banned this account, then it was lifted, hence I created the other account to send my final comment, as it seemed polite to at least say that. I will not bother the forum any more but you asked about my motivation and I will share, as you said that it bothers you not knowing.

I'm a 34 year old English man living in Bratislava, Slovakia and working as a communications/soft skills trainer for people in business. My work really satisfies me and it's about helping people to communicate more effectively. My main motivation for what I do is that when we communicate poorly, then I think it's much harder for us to move towards solutions that could actually improve society (for example, I think Brexit is a mess in large part due to an inability for both sides to properly talk through the issues / the political climate in the US seems to have become even more divided and polarised, which is hardly moving towards improvements for society). It's what I do on a daily basis with clients about their colleagues, bosses, clients and so on.

My motivation on this forum was to try and find a way to better communicate about the problems incel have faced and still face to those who might otherwise dismiss you as "extremist" or whatever. Clearly my technique could do with some work, especially in the written form as I've been misunderstood and misinterpreted a number of times, probably because of how I phrased it, plus this topic being sensitive. I'll take that as a lesson against overconfidence in my abilities :)

Your rejection is noted but I will not let it fester nor do I feel looked down upon. I can only slightly empathise with your pain as I've experienced just a fraction of the challenges you have and the times in my life when I've been celibate have been relatively short (perhaps 18 months the longest). My life won't be affecated by this, save for a slight regret that I didn't communicate with you in a better way.

Again, I wish you all the best and hope things get better for you all. Should any of you ever travel to Slovakia on a Europe trip it would be a pleasure to share a beer with you and talk in a more natural format than the forum.

Pete
 

ralpeg

Incels.Net Novice
Nojudgement said:
...
Would anyone be willing to have a balanced dialogue (i.e. both sides agree not to oversimplify or ignore the other side's points) on this topic?
yeah i'm fine with that, that is my normal modus operandi
 
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